We've not had a belly gun discussion in a while. Shucks, things have been quite quiet lately. So I'll punt and see what happens.

Lately on various forums I infest I've seen a lot of talk of cap and ball revolvers. I think a lot of it has to do with the current component shortage, but pistols and ammunition for the cap and ball addiction are also few and far between.

A while back a bird's head grip frame snub nosed resolver based on the 1860 platform showed up in some search I was doing. It "looked interesting" in a vague way, vague due to the lack of loading lever and thus lack of reloadability away from some kind of loading bench/press/apparatus. Then I saw Taffin mention Kirst Konversions and I looked them up, then did some more digging around. Turned up this particular video on the subject.

https://youtu.be/NH1RErnljEo

Digging around I learned that the Kirst cylinder requires a shorter over all length than the standard SAAMI Colt specs. Well, that's easily fixed by use of 45 Schofield or 45 Cowboy Special brass. If it weren't for the base price of the pistol PLUS the cost of the Konverter it'd be even more intriguing. A 255 gr or so flat nosed slug over a dose of appropriate powder would make for a very convincing packable swatter.

get D frame or J frame. Mo better.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

since Feb 2020 than in all the previous 12 years together that I've worked at the shop. Several/many expressed interest in using them for self-defense. In every case this was a revolver they already had and they seem to be about evenly divided between the .36 and .44 guns.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

I've never seen a 45 caliber D frame or J frame. That's what intrigues me about the above mentioned contraption. Yes, it's not a swing out cylinder and reloading is slow, but you've still got five 45 caliber slugs to start with.

highly entertaining. Yes, we have much more modern firearms available - but the old cap and ball still does what it did 150 years ago. AND we have better components to load it with and almost 200 years or experience with the platform that we can fall back on to inform us. At a couple points in time the cap and ball revolver was my only self defense weapon available - and I did not feel unarmed. First choice? No. But viable alternative if push comes to shove? Definitely. Some day I need to pick up a .36 caliber version to play with. I keep cogitating on that engraved 1851 clone I saw earlier this year.

I used to have a Kirst Konverter for a 58 Remington in 45 Colt. I had to load 200 grain Lee RNFP bullets to get the POI down to a usable level. It was pretty accurate with Trail Boss.

Bob

I have one of those 1851 engraved revolvers... mine's a "U.S. Marshall" version in .44 with a 5" barrel... been thinking of getting one of those Kirst conversion kits for it just for sh*ts and grins.... and before the availability of CCL's I used to use that B-P revolver for self defense when not at home...

That's a nice looking resolver you've got.

Not a C&B but a 3 1/2" Beretta / Uberti Stampede .45 Col I just acquired. As for reloading speed two words "Jose Wales".

Lovely little popper you have there. Took a quick look on the broker and none of the Stampedes show up with that bird's head grip frame. Do I recall correctly that they have a frame mounted firing pin? Also, do they have a transfer bar or are they basically a Colt 1873 action inside?

Yes, frame mounted firing pin with transfer bar. Safe to carry six. Barrel is marked Mod Stampede S.A. Cal .45 LC on left side,Beretta U.S.A Corp. ACKK MD on the right side. I am assuming Uberti since Beretta owns them I think. Supposedly a safe queen for the last 10 years or so. Timing is perfect, excellent fit and finish, Dry firing with snap caps, crisp no creep trigger release. No range report due to lots of IDA cleanup.

IF SOMEONE KNOWS HOW TP POST PICTURES I WILL E-MAIL THEM BOTH PERCUSSION and ctg examples

I HAVE THE NEW HICKOK .45 WITH THE .38 ON ORDER

DON-T CARE FOR THE SMALLER LIGHTNING GRIP. I HAVE A 1851 BRASS ON MY SNUB .44 1860

As I was thinking positively about this last question I received confirmation of a sort. I correspond regularly with a reader in Arizona who is almost as old as I am. In his last letter he shared what his go to town guns were. He says he will remain a dinosaur as his main pistol, which he calls his Daily Carry Gun, is a replica 1849 Colt Pocket Pistol. Historically, the 1849 Colt was an extremely popular everyday carry gun with nearly 1/3 of a million being produced The quickest reload is still a second gun and this is especially true with a single-action sixgun and imperative with a percussion pistol and his 1849 Colt is backed up by a replica 1862 Colt Police Pistol in his boot.
He does not feel the least bit undergunned and the check through history will show just how potent these pistols have been in the past. I have also heard from two readers who carry .44 Remington cap and ball revolvers on a daily basis. One is a long-distance truck driver traveling through many states while the other drives daily in a city known for its anti-Second Amendment sentiment. The feeling on both of these men is if they do have to use or if they get stopped for some reason they are carrying sixguns which are not federally regulated as firearms.
In the early 1970s Ruger reached way back into history took a good look at the cap-and ball sixguns from the middle of the 19th century and decided those designs could be easily modernized. The result was the Ruger Old Army. Ruger used the same coil spring operated action in the Old Army as found in their extensive line of single action sixguns. They also offered it in the much easier to clean stainless steel, made the loading lever stronger as well as easier to remove and replace, and provided easily adjustable sights. The gun is rugged, simple, and extremely accurate. For whatever the reason Ruger stopped production of the Old Army more than 10 years ago and I doubt we will ever see it again. They still show up infrequently at gun shops and still at relatively reasonable prices. I purchased my first Old Army nearly 50 years ago. In fact, it was the first Old Army to arrive in Idaho. Over the years I have added more Old Armies, both blue and stainless with adjustable sights as well as three with traditional fixed sights. One was an 8” version while the other two were a pair of 5-1/2” easy handling sixguns. The latter two are much easier to carry than the longer barrel versions.
These 5-1/2” Old Armies perform well with Speer’s .457” round ball, Thompson's Lubed Wad, and CCI’s #11 percussion cap. My normally used three powders are used in both 35.0 and 40.0 (BY VOLUME) charges. Those powders are Goex FFFg black powder, Hodgdon's Triple-7 FFFg, and Pyrodex P. Charges are measured with a Thompson/Center powder measure. With 35.0 grains of Triple-7 FFFg muzzle velocity is 925 fps with six shots in 1-3/8” at 20 yards. Moving up to 40.0 grains of Triple-7 FFFg yields 1,130 fps and a group of 1-3/4”. These velocities are right at, or even exceed, the same experienced with the longer barreled Old Army.
There is no doubt the Ruger Old Army is the finest percussion pistol ever offered. Liking the 5-1/2” Old Armies mentioned above I decided to take a step further to give me more versatility starting with a pair of adjustable sighted, longer barreled original Old Armies I did two things. Both of these, one stainless steel and the other blued, were fitted with Super Blackhawk grip frames which not only gives them an 1840s Colt Dragoon look, they are one of the few sixguns I can handle with these grip frames without getting my knuckles rapped every time I fire. They were then turned over to Milt Morrison to have the barrels cut back to easier handling and packing 5-1/2” barrel lengths. They are expected to be way up towards the top of the list of Perfect Packin’ Percussion Pistols.
Just how potent are black powder loads? The standard .45 ACP Hardball load of a 230 grain bullet at 820 fps has long been regarded, and rightly so, as a highly dependable fight stopping load. This can be duplicated in a Ruger Old Army Percussion Pistol with a 220 grain conical bullet over 35 grains of Pyrodex. The standard 140 grain round ball at 1,000 fps is an easy handling and powerful load.
During the original days of the cap and ball revolvers from about 1836 until the arrival of cartridge firing sixguns in the late 1860s, Perfect Packing’ Percussion Pistols are not easy to find. Certainly individual owners cut the barrels of their pistols to make them easier to carry but what about short-barreled production cap and ball sixguns? It is easy to say there were none, however this is another example of Never Say Never. In his excellent book, “Colt Model 1860 Army Revolver”, which is a must-have for anyone interested in these wonderful Percussion Pistols, author Charles Pate states there were at least one each 1860 Army revolvers made with 4-1/2”, 5-1/2”, and 6-1/2”, and also interestingly enough one with a 10” barrel. Today, Taylors & Co. offers 5-1/2” 1860 Army and 1851 Navy easy packing pistols. A most interesting version has just been introduced. Known as The Ace it is a 3” 1858 Remington without a loading lever. It fits very nicely into a pocket. Both Taylor’s & Co. and Cimarron Firearms offer both blue and stainless steel 5-1/2” 1858 Remingtons and I found a 5-1/2” 1861 Navy .36 at Dixie Gunworks.
In more than 70 years of watching Western movies at the original Saturday matinees and on TV during the reign of westerns in the 1950s and now watching both on cable TV I can’t remember ever seeing a short-barreled 1851 Navy or 1860 Colt with a shorter than standard barrel length. At least until now. I was watching a 2017 movie, “Hickok”, and the short-barreled sixguns showed up several times so it appears the Taylor’s & Co. replicas have reached the Western movie industry.
Today we have so many choices when it comes to an everyday packin’ pistol or concealed carry firearms. Number one seller today is a compact 9 mm semi-automatic and one can always be found in the right-hand pocket of my denim vest. We have other semi-automatic pistols and a long list of caliber choices as well as both single-action and double-action sixguns. Even considering carrying a cap and ball revolver might be looked upon as a little strange. However, I certainly do not feel hampered by carrying a percussion pistol afield making sure it is one which is as totally reliable as possible first. To this end there are several things which can be done. One is to replace the original nipples with higher-quality aftermarket stainless steel or bronze alloy nipples. These will have a smaller charge hole which helps to prevent hammer blowback which can allow fired caps to fall into the mechanism. A heavier mainspring than normally used on say a Colt Single Action also helps along this line as well as providing positive ignition. Making sure the face of the hammer is smooth also prevents the hammer from pulling fired percussion caps off the nipple when the hammer is cocked for the next shot.
Self-defense use? They tell us statistics when it comes to gun fights are 3-3-3, that is most confrontations occur at three yards or less in three seconds or less with three shots fired or less. As stated previously the fastest reload is still a second handgun. A pair of percussion pistols may seem dinosauric but even after being basically replaced more than 150 years ago they can still be made to work.
Life has always been uncertain, however with the latest craziness it is being made even more so. There may come a time when reloading components will be nonexistent. A few pounds of lead, a small cast-iron skillet, a simple single-cavity round ball mold, a can of black powder, and some percussion caps could be the only thing between us and disaster.

in regards to "will it work for self defense" I use the same logic as "will my computer work for 'X' task?"

Did your computer do 'X' task when it was first delivered from the factory? If yes, then it will still do the same job today. There may be "better" and "faster" and "more modern" computers that will do "X" better - but if your computer still operates like it did when first issued, it will still do the same tasks as before.

Following the analogy - did the cap and ball revolver work for self defense when it first came out? Indeed it did, and was far superior to the previous single or double barreled pistols in that it allowed multiple shots. There are faster, more modern options that many would argue are "better" than the old cap and ball - but the cap and ball revolver still works just like it did 170 years ago and will still get the job done if the person doing the job is up to it.

You can email them to: webservant AT sixshootercommunity.com and I'll be glad to get them posted.

Not quite a .45 and a 5-shot.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

will do

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More along the lines of if you load it today how long can it stay loaded and be reliable? Will handling such as in and out of pockets pull caps off?

But still a very good option!

It's kind of like those armor plated deer that cause hunters to "need" .300 magnums because .30-30 rifles won't kill them anymore.