M16 reliability and growing pains...

by Byron, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 11:37 (2979 days ago)
edited by Byron, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 11:41

This is a great report on the evolution of the M16 rifle that specifically addresses many of the weaknesses reported over the years regarding reliability and combat readiness. It is a very worthwhile read.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a953110.pdf

Of additional interest is an overview of the operational shortcoming of other American service rifles over the years including fundamental design problems with early Trapdoors (extractors very fragile) , Kargs (hard to load and common failure to feed from magazine), 1903s (excessive barrel fouling due to improper bullet jacket material and rifles blowing up), Garands (need for complete gas system redesign in 1939 and problems with failure to feed the 7th round from the clip) and M14s. The point being that all of our service rifles demonstrated major problems at the time they were placed into service that required multiple design changed to correct those initial flaws.

It also goes without saying that much of the bad rep given the early M16 was due to bias among both Ordnance and the troops, most unjustified or blatantly untrue. The old “I carried one made by Mattel” always come up during a conversation with old vets. A patient some years back always wore a Viet vet hat (his file showed a birthday in 1957) and hated the “jamamatic” M16 because the bullet was designed to tumble in flight and would rise for a couple of hundred yards and then just drop to the ground. He insisted that his “team” had special M16s chambered for the .30-30 because it cut the brush better when they went “up country”. Recently, I visited with a pair of young specialists just back from the “sandbox” who thoroughly despised the M4. A friend was shooting his Garand and allowed them to shoot it a couple of times. They pronounced it superior in every way to the M4 and indicated that we would be better armed with it than the new mouse guns. They shot my AR15 a couple of times and had difficulty in removing the magazine or releasing the safety. REMFs who couldn't shoot shit but had strong opinions about M16s.

Apparently, there were a couple of actual and major shortcomings in the release of the M16. The first and foremost was the lack of training of soldiers issued the rifle. Many were told the rifles were self-cleaning and in fact the early rifles were issued without cleaning equipment. While many servicemen in Vietnam were highly trained and professional warriors, one must admit that overall our troops at that time were the most poorly motivated, least dedicated and inconsistently lead soldiers we have ever sent to war.

The change from the IMR powder the 5.56mm was designed for to the ball powder was a significant factor that was exacerbated by shoddy manufacturing from Colt. Colt was overloaded in the demand to produce rifles and push back by the unions caused significant quality control problems, most notably improper chamber dimensions. This combined with the increased fouling and cyclic rate caused the rifles to fail. The chrome plating was credited in improving function but it is often missed that the changed in chamber dimensions took place at the same time.

Notably, the rifles manufactured by Armalite did not suffer these problems.

Modern AR15/M16 are remarkably effective and efficient rifles that preform as well as or better than anything else out there.

In closing, it is expected when the new G150 20 watt pulsed plasma rail gun is released the it will be criticized because it takes too long to charge...

Byron

A lot of pogues and poseurs out there. We call 'em out

by Hobie ⌂ @, Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 12:50 (2979 days ago) @ Byron

and they generally leave when they realize that the real thing is not a good audience for their peculiar entertainment.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

no design is perfect...

by Slow Hand ⌂ @, Indiana, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 16:17 (2979 days ago) @ Byron

Regardless of the claims by the manufacturer (cough cough Glock...) but there are a lot of fine fighting rifles out there. I have quite a few AR's and like them all, none being the same as another. All mechanical designs have faults, otherwise there would only be one toaster, drill, car or rifle. The AR is one of the longer running military designs, though I sometimes wonder if that isn't more due to politics than design. I love my FAL and like my AK's, but the AR is one of the more ergonomic and easy shooting guns I have.

On a side note, I've never heard of the 7th round feeding issue, but then again I've never gotten around to owning a Garand!

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https://facebook.com/M2bKydex/

no design is perfect...

by Harry O-1, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 17:57 (2978 days ago) @ Slow Hand

The 7th round flaw was corrected before the Garand saw combat. The original production run (supervised by John Garand) did not have that problem. Ones that were manufactured later had the problem. It was eventually found that a shortcut in machining caused the problem. The extra cut made in the guns that had the problem were welded up and remachined the original way. They did not have the problem afterwards. After they stopped the machining shortcut, they no longer had the problem.

no design is perfect...

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Friday, July 29, 2016, 07:00 (2978 days ago) @ Slow Hand

The basic AK can be rendered 2-3 MOA accurate, ergonomic and be equipped with a very good 2 stage trigger for about 300 bucks and a little work. The Krebs safety makes them very fast from 'slung' to 'hit'.

[image]
[image]

I like that one!

by Slow Hand ⌂ @, Indiana, Friday, July 29, 2016, 09:59 (2978 days ago) @ Sarge

Didn't know you had that one. Looks pretty good. I'm really happy with my AKT trigger in my cruddy old WASR. I can't shoot groups worth a darn with it but I have hit half scale silhouette steels at 350 yards with it!

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https://facebook.com/M2bKydex/

Well now...

by Byron, Friday, July 29, 2016, 11:18 (2978 days ago) @ Sarge

Not hating but there is $300.00 of Magpul furniture on that nice AK.

Replacement value of that rifle is the same as a nice AR.

All good. We shoot a lot of .30 Russian Short out here.

Cheers,

Byron

Well now...

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Friday, July 29, 2016, 12:31 (2978 days ago) @ Byron

I like a good AR too. Hell I'm an AR15 armorer. My oldest son has a S&W MP15 that has a decent singe stage trigger and is quite accurate. Maybe I'll get around to owning one someday.

On the AK- $150 in the Zuke & MOE grip/forend, $100 in the Red Star (set up two stage, 1 pound second stage, next to no overtravel) and $117 in the sights. I got into the rifle comparatively cheap, before this most recent round of 'scary gun' stupidity. Lucked out and got one with a good center-bored barrel that responded well to crowning. I've fooled with a couple of AK's, trying to get them to shoot respectably, and this one responded better than any of them. Keeper pile.

I am far from a Magpul fan but the MOE forend is the best anybody's devised for the platform. The Zuke puts the sights under my eye instantly on mounting it and is sturdy as a fixed stock when locked. It all comes together to make it far easier to shoot well. Issue AK furniture makes my neck hurt from trying to contort an old corn-fed farm boy down into Biafran militia dimensions.

Previous target was shot over the back of a lawn chair. This one is the same distance and ammo, three careful shots, cold barrel from a decent rest.

PS- I'll get outta your AR thread now. Sorry about that ;)

[image]

My first qualification

by bob, Thursday, July 28, 2016, 20:03 (2978 days ago) @ Byron

was with an International Harvester M-1, no feed problems except the time I tried to chamber my thumb!
My second was at the Benning School for Boys with an H&R M-14; despite the allegations of wandering zero due to stock problems, I fired an Expert.
The third qualification was with an early issue M-16 at Ft. Lewis just before I left to go to Defense Language School; I was proud to hear a SFC say, 'It's nice to see an Officer qualify without the help of a #2 Lead Pencil"!
In the RVN the 'old timers' on the Advisory Team made sure the FNG's understood that you must run a 16 (or CAR 15) WET. Only prob I encountered was when marking the strike zone for a Black Pony strike with a 20 round mag of tracers when my Warrant Officer Pilot took me to task for sprinkling the cabin of the Bird Dog with brass. No one EVER told me spent cases could jam the control cables!
bob

Pencil Quals

by Slow Hand ⌂ @, Indiana, Friday, July 29, 2016, 05:28 (2978 days ago) @ bob

My dad doesn't tell many Vietnam stories, but the pencil qual was one he has shared!

He was a farm boy, used to jump shooting rabbits along a fence line, but he had never target shot and never a high powered rifle. He was in 65-67, and isn't a 'gun guy' so he can't remember if it was the Garand or M-14 he used in basic, but he said he was basically scared of it. He said he learned to shoot off of the side and go up and poke his target or have buddies do
It. He was a crew chief on a Huey H Model, so the main gun he ever fired was an M60 out of the door.


[image]

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Too good to keep down....

by Byron, Friday, July 29, 2016, 06:55 (2978 days ago) @ bob

The OV-10s were great little planes and really tore it up back in the day. Recently a couple of Bronco's were sent to the mideast for a close air support trial and did such a good job there is considerable talk about bringing them back on line.

Get some.

Byron

My first qualification

by mcassill, Saturday, July 30, 2016, 08:26 (2977 days ago) @ bob

I shot expert with a couple of those ancient M16a1s; they were certainly accurate enough for the job.
Your comment about "pencil qualifications" drew a laugh. On my visit to Ft Bragg EVERYBODY had to qualify before we could get the heck out of there. I had coached a female E4 from Corps Finance through qualifying Sharpshooter with an unzeroed rifle using Kentucky windage, but we had some Navy personnel who couldn't hit the broad side of anything for love nor money. On about their fifth trip out to the firing line the solution ended up being a fat old Infantry captain on the adjacent firing point knocking down targets for them. Fast forward a couple of months downrange, and these Navy folks were serving as my battalion commander's security detail. Fortunately they never got into anything serious...

"As well or better than anything else out there"

by mcassill, Saturday, July 30, 2016, 08:14 (2977 days ago) @ Byron

The 2007 dust test proved otherwise, but do keep beating that horse.

Born in 1955 here

by Bob Hatfield @, Saturday, July 30, 2016, 12:13 (2977 days ago) @ Byron

Too young for Vietnam. Even being 18 in 73 and if I was GI I would have to have been "Special" to be there by the pullout in April of 75 and I dang sure wasn't special LOL.

I like the AR platform. The pragmatist in me tells me its all I need except for a 22 rifle, shotgun, 38 revolver and a Glock 17.

I have a few of the evil things but my favorite is a carbine put together from parts of 5 or 6 manufacturers. I have never liked optics and always prided myself on my ability to place the little bullets somewhere in the black of a bulls eye. Either with a flintlock or an AR. Small itty bitty groups are fine but the pragmatist in my tells me if I can place all of my shots in the black of a standard 100 yard target (six inch black blob)I am ok with it. I like ringing the gongs at each placement out to 500 yards offhand. Don't always hit them but hit them enough that I'm satisfied with my accuracy.

I always thought that as long as your shots are tight enough to what the front sight post would subtend at whatever distance you are shooting at then that is all the accuracy you need. If the front sight post covers the bull at 100 then all the shots should be in the bull.

But I struggle with the sight picture and will probably go with an Eotech or Aimpoint PRO to keep from having to strain and squint through my progressive lenses to find that perfect sight picture I still get from time to time. That little dot is looking better all the time.

Bob

I hear that...

by rob @, Sunday, July 31, 2016, 20:36 (2975 days ago) @ Bob Hatfield

I have a stigmatism and looking through AR sights looks like a ghost Toyota emblem most of the time and at best is egg shaped. I have a set of XS sights on my 10/22 Takedown though and they must both be the exact right distance from my eye and the right sized aperture because they work, and very well if I do say so. I have a Vortex 30mm 1-4 PST on one of my AR's and a cheaper Vortex Diamondback 2.5-7 on the other for accuracy testing. After I get done with that I'm putting my Vortex Spitfire 1X Prism scope on it. Basically a red dot but with an illuminated etched reticle that can be focused unlike a true red dot. I want one AR with iron sights that would be set up that way permanently but until I find a better system than the traditional sights it's a no go. Too bad XS doesn't make an Express ghost ring setup with the wide post/white stripe, loose the protective ears on the front that clutter the sight picture, etc. I'd buy them right away.

I hear that...

by Bob Hatfield @, Monday, August 01, 2016, 18:24 (2974 days ago) @ rob

Yeah I've perused the net looking for a good alternative for a front sight post. A really small aperture really helps focus the front sight for group shooting. I do have a Burris 332 prism scope that has a good clear dot/circle that is much better than a red dot as far as focus. It is a relief when straining to focus my beloved irons. I've heard about that there Vortex 1x prism having an etched dot doing pretty good on an AR.

Bob

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