Col Jeff...

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 11:03 (3793 days ago)

A very good way to get shot.......

by Byron, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 14:27 (3792 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

In my opinion, while Jeff brought a lot to the world of practical pistol shooting his "Modern Technique" is found wanting when applied to the real world.

According to NYPD reports from stats on 1000s and 1000s of shootings over decades, 90%ish of shootouts took place within 10' and most within 5'. This is published history and the FBI has just (within the last year) changed its training to focus on shooting within conversational distance as result of these facts.

If one will square off with a partner, both armed with gas airsoft pistols within this 10' distance it will become instantly clear that no matter what, if one chooses to "stand and deliver" they will be shot regardless of whether or not they are able to hit their man.

If one accepts the fact that the absolute best outcome that can be hoped for in a shootout is to not be shot, then the Weaver stance, flash sight picture and controlled pair when faced with someone shooting at you from 5' simply does not work.

Force on force will very quickly show that to avoid being shot when faced by someone with a gun who wants to shoot you close up that your chances of success increase greatly if you jerk your sidearm and point shoot a burst one handed at your man while jumping sideways at the same time.

When Earp said to take your time and shoot carefully, he was not talking about being surprised at arms length by a bad guy.

In addition, anyone who fancies themselves with being "ready" is not unless they train force on force at arms length. Cardboard targets at 7 yards will not get you "ready".

Byron

A very good way to get shot.......

by Sarge ⌂ @, Central Misery, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 15:02 (3792 days ago) @ Byron

Turn to page 97 of that old, pre-Modern Technique book and you will see what Cooper had to say about “pointer fire.”

“It’s an axiom that hitting your target is your main concern, and the best way to hit is to use your sights, but circumstances do arise in which the need for speed is so great, and the range so short, that you must hit by pointing alone, without seeing your gun at all.

Pointer fire is not as hard to learn as sighting, once you realize it’s range limitations. using the 1911 auto-pistol I have found that I can teach the average infantryman to stay on a silhouette at 10 yards – using pointer fire in two shot bursts – more easily that I can get him into that 25 yard bullseye using slow fire and sights.

Of course this sort of shooting is strictly a way of obtaining body hits at essentially indoor ranges ( 30 feet and under) …. But up close pointer fire can be murderously effective, and it’s mastery is often the difference between life and death.”

– Fighting Handguns, pages 97-98

According to NYPD reports from stats….

by cas, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 16:29 (3792 days ago) @ Byron

"According to NYPD reports from stats on 1000s and 1000s of shootings over decades, 90%ish of shootouts took place within 10' and most within 5'."


There's two reasons for this.

1. NYC is very crowded.
2. They couldn't hit anything any farther away, and thus didn't count as shootings.
:-D ;-)

Because of things I have had to do in the past...

by pokynojoe, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 16:42 (3792 days ago) @ Byron

I have always assumed, that were I to find myself in a "gunfight", that the most likely scenario would be that it would take place at a distance not much further than the width of a store counter.

Which always begged the question for me: How does one draw their sidearm, fire a disabling shot, and move out of the way(all at the same time), of impending gunfire from an assailant already pointing a gun at you, with their finger on the trigger, from a distance no further than the width of a store counter?

I answered this question by assuming that indeed, I would get shot. The only question that remained was would I survive? A sobering thought. Fortunately, I never had to find out.

Because of things I have had to do in the past...

by JLF @, Saturday, May 10, 2014, 20:12 (3792 days ago) @ pokynojoe

"Which always begged the question for me: How does one draw their sidearm, fire a disabling shot, and move out of the way(all at the same time), of impending gunfire from an assailant already pointing a gun at you, with their finger on the trigger, from a distance no further than the width of a store counter?"

The answer, believe it or not, is reaction time. Very few common robbers are cold-blooded killers. Yes they have a loaded gun pointed at you, and yes, they will shoot you. But NOT until they react to the idea that you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing with a loaded gun pointed at you! That can take milliseconds for the quick thinkers, and seconds for the dullards. Either way, that is enough time to do what you describe above, IF *you* are deliberate, and move without any hesitation.

JLF

The Modern Technique; Everything we do now isbuilt on it

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 09:29 (3792 days ago) @ Byron

Even certain spray and pray lay down your own suppressive fire types...Using NYPD for an example; 10 bystanders have been shot by the boys in blue in the last 18 months or so...not a department to emulate in anyway.
So again, Happy Birthday to the late great Colonel Jeff Cooper. We all owe him a mountain of praise.

--
Of the Troops & For the Troops

The Modern Technique; Everything we do now isbuilt on it

by Byron, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 10:36 (3792 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pr/pr_2011_preliminary_stats.shtml

A couple of years out of date but still true.

NYPD has shown how to limit gun violence on both sides of the badge.

Stop and frisk works.

New York City (and I don't even want to visit) is now the safest big city in the country.

Not a bad model, considering they are all a bunch of lib Yankees.

Training without force on force is like hitting a heavy bag but never sparring and saying you're a boxer.

Byron

Areyou assuming that Gunsite doesn't teach force on force?

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 11:45 (3792 days ago) @ Byron

They do...

--
Of the Troops & For the Troops

NYC is the safest big city in the country.

by cas, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 15:57 (3791 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

Due to "proactive police enforcement". Some would argue that's a euphemism for neofascist police techniques. (including some of the guys I know on the job). Rights be damned!

Not to worry, it's already swinging the other way now that the commie mayor is in office.

You can't win, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Cities are full of people, and by and large, they suck.

Two words...

by rob @, Friday, May 16, 2014, 22:02 (3786 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

Gabe Swarez. The outcome of all his force on force training is that everyone that does it empties their BB gun and wishes they had higher capacity. His doctrine starts with "Thou shalt mock Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith daily". But he has his fan boyz and they are loyal. Didn't take me long to get banned from WT....consider it a badge of honor.

My 2 cents worth

by Charles, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 09:49 (3792 days ago) @ Rob Leahy

I started shooting the handgun 56 years ago. My formal instruction in defensive/combat handgun shooting was slight. A couple of session with Bill Jordon on the river bank and a session with Bill Tony at the Border Patrol Academy was it. Both these guys taught me draw and fire with my eyes on the target and the pistol waist high. The range was short and shorter. I was then told to practice until I could do a good job of what needed to be done. I was also admonished to take up Bulleye Target shooting to learn about trigger squeeze, sight picture, proper grip and breath control. When I had that down, I should then learn to do it with two hands and I was finished.

I did as instructed and in a couple of years was a fair pistol shot up close and far away.

That was about the time when Col Cooper came on the scene. I read his stuff and was interested in what he was doing. I read about the Weaver stance and took a look at what I was doing and found I had found that was a natural stance for me and I was the blind squirrel that found the nut by accident. I was using the Weaver stance and didn't even know it.

I have never been in a gun fight, although I did have to pull the pistol twice. I carry a gun daily and feel confident in my ability to use it. I still practice what I learned from Jordon and Tony.

I read the article by Jim Wilson and feel he is spot on. I have never been to Gunsite or be trained by any guru. Somehow I don't feel the need I can no longer run, jump roll and all of that stuff. I will just have to stand my ground and use the skills I have and hope I come through. At any rate, I know I am not going to die young so survival isn't near the issue it was some years back.

Charles you're affirming what I think.

by cas, Sunday, May 11, 2014, 10:26 (3792 days ago) @ Charles

In "the old days" you were taught one end or the other, and if done right, you were taught/learned both ends.

With time and practice those two ends, two skill sets would meet in the middle and you'd be a fully rounded handgun shooter.


Now days people just learn the middle. People think it's a giant leap forward in "training" and handgun shooting.
But they can't do anything fast and crude (point shooting), and anything farther away than 10 yards they think is too far away for a pistol. Like any marshal art, the short path is never the way to being a master. ;)

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