Dave B's post below brought something to mind. Since the Glorious Leader doesn't want us to have semiauto rifles anymore, wouldn't it be nice if some enterprising manufacturer, (say Ruger, perhaps) would come out with slightly scaled down (say about 7/8 scale) copy of the old Savage Model 99, with a 20-inch barrel, integral 10-round rotary magazine, in .223 Remington caliber. Choice of wood or synthetic stock, and drilled & tapped for an aperture sight or scope mounts. Make it short, light and handy, for a utility hunting, varmint control, and home defense gun.

A .223 levergun - I'd buy one, and I don't even need it!

Well, you know what they say: "It takes all kinds." (And luckily we have 'em!)

(Once again, JUST IN CASE: I don't mean to be offensive; I just think the idea of a .223 levergun is funny...)

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Think that died.

Some of them are still floating around in .223.

Several million Appalachian assault rifles made in 30 short Russian. Well, we call it the 30-30, but same ballistics.

The .30-30 gives good practical accuracy out to ranges that most people would need using open sights or low power optics. The .357 mag versions give more magazine capacity.

I've wondered what you could do with the AR15 platform to make it not semi-automatic but still make it efficient. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to existing lowers because there is nothing in the lower that is specific to semi-auto operation but certainly you could make uppers that were not semi-auto. For instance just removing the gas tube makes it a single shot direct pull bolt action. I think it would be easy to make a pump action upper that would go onto any existing lower. Maybe you could weld up the buffer tube opening and in that way make the lower not work with semi-auto uppers, then buy alternative uppers. But then you can buy a new levergun for not much more than what the cheapest semi-auto uppers cost.

Years ago JMB hooked a soop spoon to some linkage and used gasses escaping from the muzzle to convert a lever action into the first semi-auto. Now here is a proposal to convert an AR back!

We need a "lever action AR"!

Oh yeah, it's here already.

I think they will be after all repeating firearms in the future. Didn't the Aussies ban pumps as well?

Assuming the current drought subsides of course.

M193 will sail through 12" pine trees. Don't ask me how I know that.
If you're worried about over-penetration, use varmint bullets. HP match bullets would be a second choice.

Winchester PP or Sierra 63 gr. SP. Now that I tried the Winchester (on Byron's recommendation) I find there isn't much difference and one can even get by with using the same powder charge.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

Apparently he's the go to guy in Lancaster County...

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Sincerely,

Hobie

Nm

I'd be worried about those exiting on the average crackhead. YMMV

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

There are many variables in bullet performance in the .223/5.56mm and the most important is velocity. To some degree, more or less, your choice should take that into consideration. Velocity will be affected by range and barrel length. With that in mind, do you shoot a full length 20" musket or a 14.5/16" M4gery.

From my very limited experience with the round when shooting thin skinned, finely boned animals under 200 kilos pretty much anything will get the job done within as long as velocy is maintained over 2700fps.

There is nothing wrong with real milspec m193 out of a full length rifle. Within a couple of hundred yard it will fragment violently and with a solid body shot the expected will happen quickly.

SS109/M855 green tip is cussed by many but a search of a police shooting data base show 283 shootings and 272 one shot drops for an average of 96%. Be aware that this shooting are in a police setting where range is often across the room and almost never more that 50 yards. Much of the complaints against green tip are from chaotic military shootouts where it is unclear as to if the bad guy was truely hit, regardless of the statements of "I emptied a clip right into him." When shooting is in excess of 100 yards from short barrels the green tip will often be found wanting.

The federal prison here in Leavenworth issues both IMI m192 and 40 grain Federal Blitz ammo and reports a 100% success rate when shooting convicts across the yard.

CHP has uses the WW 64gr Powerpoint for decades with no complaints.

The only round which should never be considered for this purpose is any of the steel cased Russian ammo. It is loaded to a lower than spec velocity and the jackets are so heavy that it will never fragment at any velocity.

Personally, I do not see the need for the uber high zoot tactical $2.00 a round bullets. Again as long as velocity is over 2700fps most anything will get the job done.

Byron

Think of the leverguns that we have- old Winchester and Marlin designs, Savage 99, Winchester 88, Browning BLR. Now think of how autos have evolved from designs like the M1 Garand to the Winchester 100, Remington 742, Browning BAR, and then on to our black rifle designs like the AR15. That Winchester 94 design pimped into a black rifle is pretty ugly, but what if AR15 designers were turned loose to build a levergun, what would it look like? Or what if they built a pump gun?

I've been around NRA highpower shooters a lot and the AR15 is popular there but some people still use bolt action rifles in the match rifle class. I wondered if a straight pull AR15 non-auto would be a reasonable alternative to a bolt action match rifle in the event that autos are severely restricted.

I like to think back at how someone thought outside the box and took the old Gatling design and converted it into our modern high speed miniguns. I'm not enough of a visionary but I wonder what a contemporary wood-less levergun or pump gun could look like.

Assuming that is correct, it shows.

I too, am an engineer and completely get what you are pondering. In fact, I would love to be part of the design team asking the questions! Who knows where it would go...

What tickled was looking at coming full circle (again?) and not that it was an irrational thought. Matter of fact, it appeals.

The Marlin pic in my earlier post is a fright. I saw one in person and do believe I have never before in my life seen anything hit so hard with an ugly stick. That said, it was handy and useful. I could even see buying one if for no other reason than having the adjusto-stock for kid/women shooters. As an "Amish assualt rifle", it would probably serve.

Made for or more of the European countries.

Remington 45 grain JHP worked extremely well for me in one incident - tricky shot at a feral dog about 40 yards away, with a house immediately behind him and more houses/people 200 yards downrange. Dog weighed about 20 pounds, but the bullet took him down immediately and did not exit. Dog DRT, with no collateral damage.

For comparison, the dog was one of two that had moved in under my mother-in-laws house. The other dog was comparable in size, about 20 pounds. I managed to catch that one in the open, with open land behind him. He took two solid hits with 9mm JHP, and still required a finisher. I don't think there was enough dog there to get the 9mm JHPs to open up, but the Remington .223 JHP did just fine.

Standard round around the farm is the Hornady 55 gr soft point loaded to near m193 spec. One issue to be aware of is that at this level you will see blown primers from time to time especially if the brass is getting tired. This bullet will kill deer about as good as anything when shot in the chest or neck. If I was limited to one load this would be it.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=1953&dir=278|281|1081|1141

High performance load is a m262 Mod 1 spec load of this 75 gr OPBT bullet. It kills deer like lightning. Wound tracts are very little different from those left by 150 gr .308 soft points. This is a real killer bullet when shot at high velocity.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8438&dir=278|281|1081|1159

The other load is the steel cased russian ball that is loaded in boxer primed cases. The only thing going for this ammo is the low price and the fact that the cases can be reloaded into very high quality ammo.

Byron

Buy more and better ARs. belt fed. flame throwers,etc Why the heck can't we buy a MG42 with a suppressor in every state in the US??? RESIST TYRANNY don't bend to it.

"Throughout the United States, there are tens of millions of fully-armed citizens who are more than capable of defending themselves and their communities against any enemy–whether that enemy is an internal or external one. In fact, many millions of these citizens have been trained in the US armed forces. Firearms–especially semi-automatic rifles–in the hands of millions of American citizens is truly the only thing that stands between freedom and tyranny for the people of the United States. That Barack Obama and Dianne Feinstein want to disarm the American people should be considered an act of war against our liberties! In other words, ladies and gentlemen, this is a line in the sand that none of us can afford to ignore."

I also wrote, "Make no mistake about it: to take away an American's right to a semi-automatic rifle is to FULLY DISARM HIM. There is no Second Amendment; there is no right to keep and bear arms; there is no citizen militia; there is no liberty without the semi-automatic rifle!" http://www.rightsidenews.com/2013011131745/life-and-science/culture-wars/revolution-lin...

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

amen to that rob!

I don't have photos of all my grandfathers who served in the revolution. I feel as though I'd be betraying them as well.

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Sincerely,

Hobie

let's not even go there.

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Of the Troops & For the Troops

This is why we have a second amendment. I'm not giving up my rights. They can just kill me if the feel its worth the price.