Hey guys,

There's an opening of sorts in the dearth of decent shotguns down here north of the Equator and south of the Canal. Someone high enough up the ladder to have some influence seems to be pushing for the formation of a Sporting Clays league or something of the sort and they've got a shipment of scatterguns coming in this month with a second one coming in the middle of the year. They are VERY limited as to what is coming in with only Winchester and Browning being mentioned and only very specific models and very limited numbers. Most (if not all) the first shipment is spoken for. Anyway, I'm very interested in taking up this offer they are making as Sporting Clays is an excellent excuse to obtain what one day may be called on to defend the innocent should society take a nose dive - if you get my drift. There's nothing so benign appearing as a 'sporting implement' and registered sportsmen have historically been allowed access to that which other people are not in this country. As a permanent resident I get the same treatment as the nationals as far as firearms and such go, including special privileges for being a registered shooter. My US citizenship pretty much counts for nothing in the matter, especially in comparison to my rights as a sportsman under the Constitution and other legislation here(some folks seem to believe that our 2nd Amendment will allow us to ignore local law when traveling/living abroad - this is not the case.)

So, here's the "official list" that I've obtained. No mention of the Beretta that I'd heard rumors was also going to be coming in, the Winchester and Browning models below are organized according to cost. I'm not sure exactly what each model is yet, am trying to sort through and get a handle on everything. I'm not a shotgunner by raising, training or inclination so am playing "ketchup" in this part of my shooting education. I've got just enough of an idea of the sport to be dangerous.

Here's the list along with approximate value in dollars - the exchange rate tends to fluctuate and for the most part it does not favor those of us who are funded by US dollars.

WINCHESTER SX3 FIELD ................................approximately $1,880 US
WINCHESTER SX3 CAMO INFINITY ..................approximately $1,940 US

BROWNING MAXUS COMPOSITE....................... approximately $2,100 US
BROWNING MAXUS CAMO DUCK BLIND.............. approximately $2,160 US
BROWNING MAXUS SPORTING CARBON FIBER......approximately $2,220 US
BROWNING MAXUS STANDARD ........................approximately $2,330 US

BROWNING Mod. B525 SPORTER.......................approximately $2,390 US
BROWNING Mod. B525 SPORTER.20 gauge .........approximately $2,900 US

Ammo is as yet unknown, I'm not sure what they are allowing the sport shooters to purchase. I've seen both national production and an imported brand (Rio) hulls around. The specs on the national seem to be about 3/4 to 1 1/8 of 7 1/2 to 9 shot (if I did the conversion right, 24 to 32 grams payload) while the Rio seems to be all 24 gram loads labeled Skeet, Trap and Target. Occasionally they'll allow us to purchase other shells as a club, for hunting purposes, and #4, 6, 0, 00 and 000 all seem to be occasionally available. I've no doubts of the efficacy of even the light loads at entrance hall distances for defensive purposes (see Jeff Quinn's gunblast.com video on the subject) and if they'll sell me 1,000 rounds of such every now and then I'll not feel unarmed.

Anyway, this is still all theoretical as I'm not sure how I'll come up with the $1,000 - $1,500 or so between what is available and what the cost will be. So thanks for feedback and ideas.

& will post replies.

"All are excellent firearms and quality does match price on these, note that camo and synthetic also affect price. In SC in prefer AA Sporting Clay #7 1/2 or Heavy #9"

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I'd say for him to go for the 525 in 12ga. Far & away the best gun & value & not overpriced for what it is, as some of the others on his list are, IMO. A 525 is simply a European Miroku [Japanese] Browning Citori, generally w/better wood, dimensions and that uses [or did] the original 'Invector ' chokes rather than the later 'Invector + ' chokes. The dif being that the std. 'Invector' choked guns have slightly heavier bbls., a good thing, IMHO. Some friends & I imported a number of such guns some years ago from [Andrew] Litts in Wales for just that reason, 20ga. guns w/30" bbls. to use for personal high volume shooting in S.A. before the Argentineans got to be such picks [added what amounted to a 'personal gun use permit fee' of $40 per & extra paperwork hassle & departure taxes, among other things] about bringing your own guns to use. Oh, and NO ports were on the European 525 bbl.'s either, since all of the "Brownings" sold in the US at that time had shorter and 100% factory ported bbls. Anyway the 525 is a very well made O/U that for any purpose is a fine gun by any standard; one of the world's best from a design & function perspective, closely following the original design that FN made as the original superposed Browning had designed, but with better steels and in some ways fit, because of the CNC matching technology in use today. I'd personally also say that the modern Miroku bbls. are better made than the original FN's, if for no other reason than they do NOT have the ribs soft soldered to the bbl.'s, as the original & modern custom shop FN made guns do and therefore don't shoot loose. Having a rib come loose in the field in a 'hot corner' & then have to spend $400~$750 to have it put back on an FN & the bbls. reblacked/blued is no fun. BTW, Winchester 101 ribs sometimes come loose too. I presently have one being refit by Andrew MacFarlane, an English expat gun builder friend and it is still gonna cost me a pretty penny,

In some remote spot or in the field an O/U will continue to function much longer than anything else; even if an ejector fails one can shoot it as an extractor gun & should one bbl. fail to function for whatever reason, the selective trigger lets the operator shoot the other one. In a defensive situation or over some years of neglect, that may be important. A 12ga, loaded with an once [28 grams] of anything, shot size wise, is superior to a pistol/revolver inside 20 yards 100% of the time and I don't care how big the caliber is. You know that, but your friend may not. A 12ga. within a few feet can cut a 4x4 piece of wood in half .. w/one shot! Quite powerful & convincing medicine, when needed. A 525's purpose as a sporting weapon would have almost zero challenge, while some of the other models listed that can fire more than three rounds could become subject to rather stricter rules , regulation or even confiscation.

Never give a politician the benefit of the doubt.

I'm no expert but I'd got with the SX3 for a good dual purpose gun. I know a good number of them are used in multigun competition, so reliability and durability are good. For something to sit at home for defense most time, I'd much prefer a five shot semi auto to a doublegun.

Added benefit that its the cheapest model makes purchase a better possibility as well as getting more ammo in the same budget.

When buying my sporting clays model, I was told that in twelve gage, the barrels using invector plus choke tubes are factory back bored to about the size of the original ten gage dimentions. This is suppose to improve patterns and lessen recoil.

Ammo:

1-1/8 oz, for serious competition. 1 oz for fun , casual competition or practice.

Bigger shot breaks the hard birds- choose 7-1/2. What you give up in pattern density, you regain in pellet mass for breaking hard irds, or those birds on the fringe of the engagement envelope.

All shot sizes work at 5 meters. 0 buck has a more dense pattern than 00 or 0, and extends the effective range a bit in a modified choke gun. On bad persons , makes effective range perhaps 15 meters. Bigger shot has a tad bit ( technical engineering term) more whack at 15-20 m, but pattern density is such that a fairly large target may remain unscathed at 20-25 m.

Rio is EXCELLENT ammo. Can't compare to Brand X, as I dont know what Brand X is.

Guns

Browning B525 is a known quantity- good gun. I suspect the others are too.

If they are available on the national market you inhabit, find an old Ithaca Model 37 if you can. Less frightening to the local high muckety-mucks and an excellent sporting gun. Damn good weapon, too. Pump guns function better with crappy ammo- you can YANK the handle and eject a stuck case.

Good Luck - I I can help further John can give you my address, if you wish.

Thank God I live in Texas.

To tell the truth, the snob appeal of a B525 O/U is attractive. There's a lot to be said for it even in a defensive situation and a lot MORE to be said for it in case the powers that be decide to do a recall of "dangerous weapons" (they already did so with the M1 rifles that gave our local club its original name of "Punto Treinta"). The main problem is in cost. Since it's the highest in cost for purchase it is also the least accessible. Personally I'd prefer a SXS, they evoke the good ol' days of Africa and large bore dangerous game rifles and all that, but the O/U probably has the practical edge since you're using only one horizontal plane for sighting. It would be interesting to see what kind of speed could be produced in repeat shots with an O/U, ie how long it would take to accurately fire 6, 8, 10 rounds, etc. Methinks that one would be able to train to the point where remarkable rapidity could be achieved.

On the other hand, I do have an issue with my left retina and am thinking that the cushioning of the gas system should tame the recoil a bit.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

Oh, and the "Brand X" is probably not known anywhere outside of the country. It's good to know that Rio is a respected brand as they DO import it for sports use. Don't know prices yet, one thing at a time.

yeah the SX3 is the most accessible. I did some poking around and found a +6 magazine for it on Brownells website. 10 + 1 12 gauge rapid fire could be highly entertaining one would think.

How have you liked it so far? Yes, the barrels on the B525 are backbored with lengthened forcing cones and all as well to improve patterning. Some folks insist on obtaining extended choke tubes, I'm not sure yet why.

should you have to. No cheap Spanish doubles around there?
I wish I could send a shotgun to you and be done with their outrageous prices and foolishness.

--
Of the Troops & For the Troops

They have imported some cheap Turkish pumps - and are selling them for about what the above mentioned double is selling for, we're getting a discount over what they USUALLY mark up their imports. Shucks, they brought in some Sig 9mms a while back and only charged themselves about 6 times what they cost in the U.S. - someone's getting a kickback somewhere, somehow. I'd have brought something in a long time back if I could, that's for sure. I put a PCP rifle along with a Hill brand pump and a multipump pistol in a case and brought 'em down - they got snagged by customs at the airport even though the law is on my side. Now to wait for my appeal to run the channels. If it'd been a firearm I'd be involved in prison ministry about now. I was promised a flintlock by a friend but it didn't come about or it too would be sitting in customs waiting for the appeal to run its course. Wish I'd gone ahead and picked up a lock from TOTW but waited for the rifle and then time ran out. Maybe next time.

The lable on the end of the box said Citori Lightning and under that Sporting Clays. Mine was comfortable to shoot and seemed to me to have better pattarns than my 101 Winchesters. I used it for hunting. I always favored number six shot for most everything. I thought it held it's patterns in the wind better than the smaller shot. For geese and pheasants I used BB because they were still where they fell when I got there, instead of running off and hiding.

As a gun used for hunting and competition I think these are ideal. The only thing I would change for my use were I to do it again is choose the shorter barrel length. I got the 30" barrels because my old 101 had 30" barrels, three inch chambers, full and full chokes. That gun was so deadly for chucker, partridge, geese, and pheasants, I nicknamed it "Ole Bitter". My other 101 was a 26" imp/mod and was great for dove and quail. I sold the two 101's and bought the Browning to replace them. It worked out well for that role but If I was doing it today I would probably try the 28" barrels. I never patterned it on paper to see if it was really shooting better than the 101 and have since gifted it to my nephew. He seems to really like it.

Yeah, I favor larger shot myself although I've not done a lot of shotgunning. Started out with a Boito single barrel 32 gauge and taught myself to reload full brass shells for it. I'm not sure what all they're letting us get now, will have to wait 'til after the holiday season when things open up again to get ahold of the lady in charge of this deal. I do believe they'll let us by sporting cartridges by the case through the federation, the local army store only lets us have 100 rounds every six months or so for each caliber we have papers for... either way it's a lot more than anything but premium shells in the US of A.