AR15/M16 The rest of the story...

by Byron, Saturday, September 12, 2020, 14:39 (72 days ago)

Much has been said through the years about the shortcomings of the AR15/M16 pattern of rifles and much of that is simply untrue.

Most have heard that when their best friends uncle Bob was in the 'nam he carried an M16 made and marked by Mattel and that the bullets would "rise" and tumble out of the muzzle.

That the 5.56mm round was only good for gophers and would not carry up and was only effective at close range.

Then the story from some years back (on this site) about a local BBQ with a young gentleman (REMF) fresh from the "sandbox" when given the opportunity to shoot a M1 Garand pronounced it superior in every way to the POS M4 issued and that he would have preferred it.

Then the response from a respected long term member of the board to a picture of my son in 2007 who was a USMC grunt in Fallugah and Ramadi with his M203 was that "at least he could count on at least one round going off".

Yada yada...

Anyway this is in my opinion the most in depth study on the history of the failure of the M16 when first fielded in VN.

A valuable insight into the military industrial complex.



AR15/M16 story...

by Gunner ⌂ @, St Louis, Saturday, September 12, 2020, 15:36 (72 days ago) @ Byron

First off......that sight is really hard to read anything on with all the crap on the sides, the narrow text field and stuff bouncing up and down.

Secondly, I didn't see anything new, everything is old news and well documented and the author mainly list all the well known issues from the early deployments. As the war went on most issues were corrected which left problems mainly due to lack of care and basic maintenance.

And the usual "M16 maintenance and handling is too much for basic recruits" and is "hard to learn" is total BS. Pop a AR15 apart in front of a non gun person and watch the expression on their face, total amazement that the rifle came apart so quick and easy.

The AR15 is like any other weapon, some like it some don't, there is a correct usage and a non-correct usage. Know of idiots who went wild boar hunting with a 9mm and wondered why the hog ran off, me I take a Ruger Alaskan in 416 Ruger, and no, they do not run off on my shot.


41 Mags rule, Baers rock!

AR15/M16 The rest of the story...

by bj @, Saturday, September 12, 2020, 21:10 (72 days ago) @ Byron

I remember a story in a gun magazine a long time ago. Of course back then everybody was prejudiced against .223 as a military weapon because it was primarily used on woodchucks and prairie dogs. This magazine did a series of tests of .223 vs. .308 which at the time was the standard NATO caliber. I don't recall much of the story but test 1 was to shoot through a standard GI steel helmet- the .308 went through, the .223 didn't. In hindsight I find this unusual because the high velocity .223 has a reputation for damaging steel targets. The second test involved shooting through an array of wooden dowels, to mimic shooting through forest cover. Of course the .308 went through but the .223 fragmented. The last test involved shooting at a large canvas target at 1000 yards, since older battles were sometimes fought at similar ranges. What they found was that the small .223 projectiles wouldn't penetrate the canvas target at 1000 yards. Of course the writers had a lot of fun with this one. I know a lot of highpower ranges won't let you shoot standard weight bullets for the longer distances (up to 600 yards) because they won't maintain supersonic and they apparently can deviate quite a bit when they transition to subsonic. If they become subsonic before 600 yards, they wouldn't be very effective as a military weapon at those ranges.

I've fired an A1 pattern rifle a lot in high power competition. I find them accurate and easy to shoot. They seem to be very reliable but they can be picky about being kept clean. I've never shot anything more than a heavy paper target with one so I don't know about effectiveness on other targets.

after reading the article...

by bj @, Saturday, September 12, 2020, 21:48 (72 days ago) @ bj

The writer spends a lot of time on ball vs stick powders. I don't know that ball powder should be to blame, maybe they used the wrong ball powder. I've used ball and stick powder interchangeably in my match ammo and from published literature they have similar burning rates, the ball powder I've used is manufactured by Winchester so they could have used an appropriate powder back at the time.

I've read before about powder residue being a factor in cartridge extraction, the gist of it was that a different powder had different additives and left different residue in the chamber. We all know that some powders are "dirtier" than others, that could explain extraction problems. And extraction problems are still a thing, even using stick powder.

AR15/M16 The rest of the story...

by Creeker @, Hardwoods, Sunday, September 13, 2020, 16:56 (71 days ago) @ Byron

Never fired a shot in anger from an M-16. I will say during basic in 1968 I can remember no malfunctions or misfires in my class. That's not saying much but it is what it is.

:-) How times have changed. Attitudes, training, education

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Wednesday, September 16, 2020, 20:11 (68 days ago) @ Byron

That may have been me that snarked about the M203... My apologies. Byron, I have been very pleased with the AR, after spending a lot more time with them. They are a bit addictive... I have purchased assembled several and like them to be as lite and simple as possible...[image] Jan's little SIG "Pistol" in 5.56. It has a Aimpoint on it these days...
My.300 AAC. , now Both are favorites...

Of the Troops & For the Troops

:-) How times have changed. Attitudes, training, education

by Byron, Thursday, September 17, 2020, 04:55 (68 days ago) @ Rob Leahy


That was you...

And yes, the AR pistol is just the huckleberry.

Almost all the deputies out here have one in the car.



Byron, I have ended up putting 20+ of these together

by Rob Leahy ⌂ @, Prescott, Arizona, Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:18 (67 days ago) @ Byron
edited by Rob Leahy, Thursday, September 17, 2020, 11:25

for my employees and friends. Dang, I have a left over stock,I'd better start a new one! :-)
"Miles" spent a LONG time of the phone and in person, teaching me about the AR. He used small words, repeated himself and spoke slowly, so I got it. Also some reading the Book of two Guns. The Black Rifle among others...and several classes at Gunsite. Interesting in the first on site carbine course, circa 20011, the only 3 guns to go down were all operator negligence: A Ruger Piston Gun No lube at all... A FN SCAR No Lube At all and a HK 416 owner failed to bring along his proprietary sight tool and had utterly failed to sight in BEFORE the class. He turned up his nose at my spare DSA AR with Aimpoint2...after 3 minutes of fiddling, one of the instructors asked me if the guy could barrow my Aimpoint... the other guns, my Rock River the entire list of other ARs all functioned flawlessly. and every other class has gone the same. occasional gas system issues on one 300 Aac of a friend's.

I pray that you and yours are doing well.

Of the Troops & For the Troops

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